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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Smackdown&#8221; with Frank Gehry</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/</link>
	<description>Placemaking for Communities</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 14 May 2013 09:42:29 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Maverick Architect Proposes Radical Idea: Cars Without Drivers - Eco-nomics - Stories from the Mother Nature Network - Forbes</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-3/#comment-96518</link>
		<dc:creator>Maverick Architect Proposes Radical Idea: Cars Without Drivers - Eco-nomics - Stories from the Mother Nature Network - Forbes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Apr 2011 02:21:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-96518</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Libeskinds &#8212; they just look like outsized vanity projects to me. And they are, in the main, openly hostile to the public space around them. (Frank Gehry&#8217;s starmaking Guggenheim Bilbao, for example, is surrounded by an asphalt [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Libeskinds &#8212; they just look like outsized vanity projects to me. And they are, in the main, openly hostile to the public space around them. (Frank Gehry&#8217;s starmaking Guggenheim Bilbao, for example, is surrounded by an asphalt [...]</p>
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		<title>By: upssolder</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-3/#comment-94718</link>
		<dc:creator>upssolder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:34:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-94718</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Amen GV!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen GV!</p>
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		<title>By: Komal Parvez</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-3/#comment-92324</link>
		<dc:creator>Komal Parvez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 08:59:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-92324</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Todays Iconic architecture is sculpture,that says &#039;look at me&#039; dont use me!landscape around these structures is cold and bare so that it does not interfere in its viewing.Its egoistic, that&#039;s what Architects are and that&#039;s what clients are too !]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Todays Iconic architecture is sculpture,that says &#8216;look at me&#8217; dont use me!landscape around these structures is cold and bare so that it does not interfere in its viewing.Its egoistic, that&#8217;s what Architects are and that&#8217;s what clients are too !</p>
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		<title>By: GV</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-3/#comment-91827</link>
		<dc:creator>GV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-91827</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Successful outdoor spaces will only be achieved when Architects acknowledge Landscape Architects!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Successful outdoor spaces will only be achieved when Architects acknowledge Landscape Architects!</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Gat</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-3/#comment-91260</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Gat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 23:54:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-91260</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I often thought about showing people (but not architects) two photos side by side, that of the New York and that of the Bilbao Gugenheim, both from a distance of say 30 meters, and asking them to state their prefernce. I know what mine is.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I often thought about showing people (but not architects) two photos side by side, that of the New York and that of the Bilbao Gugenheim, both from a distance of say 30 meters, and asking them to state their prefernce. I know what mine is.</p>
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		<title>By: האנטי-אורבניזם של פרנק גרי &#124; הרחובות שלנו</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-3/#comment-91250</link>
		<dc:creator>האנטי-אורבניזם של פרנק גרי &#124; הרחובות שלנו</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 21:10:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-91250</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] רצה לענות על השאלה ולמרות שקנט חזר עליה פעמיים נוספות הארכיטקט המפורסם ניפנף בידו בזלזול.הארוע גלש משם וסיפק כר נרחב לדיונים ברשת. כדאי לציין [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] רצה לענות על השאלה ולמרות שקנט חזר עליה פעמיים נוספות הארכיטקט המפורסם ניפנף בידו בזלזול.הארוע גלש משם וסיפק כר נרחב לדיונים ברשת. כדאי לציין [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Livingston</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-3/#comment-90897</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Livingston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:24:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-90897</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m finding this discussion extremely interesting, but I&#039;d intended to stay out of it, until I received the recent PPS mailing, which led off with this comment:

&quot;the arts are and always have been driven to a large degree by more or less conscious desire of the elite to differentiate itself from the masses. With the industrial and educational revolution in the beginning of the last century, classical art lost its differentiating power, because it became available to the masses. The replacement of principles of harmony and beauty with obscurity and conceptual code was the only mechanism to restore the differentiating function of the arts.&quot;

This is a great statement of a pretty common argument: great because it highlights a contradiction that could be a source of productive insight, if acknowledged.

The contradiction?  The classical arts--honoring &quot;principles of harmony and beauty&quot;--are the products of a frankly class-differentiated society, driven by an explicit desire to distinguish the elite from the masses.  Do we, therefore, think less of them?  Does the will to distinction compromise their beauty? 

If you say yes, you are a good democrat: quality is the enemy of equality. You can take your stand with the revolutionaries of 1793 who would have torn down the towers of Notre Dame.

If you say no, what&#039;s your problem with the desire for distinction?  Obscurity and conceptual code are symptoms of a desire for distinction in a democratic age, when all judgments of quality are under suspicion of harboring snobbery, being vehicles of elitism.  Rampant anti-elitism discounts judgment, avoids serious argument about aesthetics, and paradoxically encourages artists to ignore the public. 

So let&#039;s be careful when we claim to speak against elites in the name of the public: aren&#039;t we just preferring one elitism to another?  A spurious populism is no substitute for serious argument.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m finding this discussion extremely interesting, but I&#8217;d intended to stay out of it, until I received the recent PPS mailing, which led off with this comment:</p>
<p>&#8220;the arts are and always have been driven to a large degree by more or less conscious desire of the elite to differentiate itself from the masses. With the industrial and educational revolution in the beginning of the last century, classical art lost its differentiating power, because it became available to the masses. The replacement of principles of harmony and beauty with obscurity and conceptual code was the only mechanism to restore the differentiating function of the arts.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is a great statement of a pretty common argument: great because it highlights a contradiction that could be a source of productive insight, if acknowledged.</p>
<p>The contradiction?  The classical arts&#8211;honoring &#8220;principles of harmony and beauty&#8221;&#8211;are the products of a frankly class-differentiated society, driven by an explicit desire to distinguish the elite from the masses.  Do we, therefore, think less of them?  Does the will to distinction compromise their beauty? </p>
<p>If you say yes, you are a good democrat: quality is the enemy of equality. You can take your stand with the revolutionaries of 1793 who would have torn down the towers of Notre Dame.</p>
<p>If you say no, what&#8217;s your problem with the desire for distinction?  Obscurity and conceptual code are symptoms of a desire for distinction in a democratic age, when all judgments of quality are under suspicion of harboring snobbery, being vehicles of elitism.  Rampant anti-elitism discounts judgment, avoids serious argument about aesthetics, and paradoxically encourages artists to ignore the public. </p>
<p>So let&#8217;s be careful when we claim to speak against elites in the name of the public: aren&#8217;t we just preferring one elitism to another?  A spurious populism is no substitute for serious argument.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Allsopp, RIBA, FRSA</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-3/#comment-90812</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Allsopp, RIBA, FRSA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:40:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-90812</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry to see in writing some bickering over who is more pompous than others.  Reminds me of too many conferences I&#039;ve spoken at and attended.

Fact of the matter is that we have an enormous and highly complex set of public policy, legislative and regulatory problems that have created the urban and suburban mess that a couple of hundred million of us are having to live in and with.  The effect of our nation swallowing hook line and sinker Detroit&#039;s vision of the American Dream has precipitated a 50 year profits-at-all-costs construction binge by developers and so-called &quot;builders&quot; who have smeared poorly constructed fake Tuscany suburban sprawl across our landscapes with no regard at all to the patterns and needs of people and the natural world that sprawl impacts so directly.

The cultural, social and economic blight that such development have so ably supported is what we are now having to deal with.  And its going to take a couple of generations to fix.  During that time, our universities and the professions involved in the environments we inhabit (natural and man-made) have got to do a far better job of educating new generations who need to be skilled in depth in many different disciplines.  The idea that architects only &quot;do buildings&quot; or geographers only &quot;do cultural landscapes&quot; or urban planners only know how to draw on maps is ridiculous today and will be ever more so in the coming years.  Additionally, we have got to move toward a far stronger evidence-basis for design and planning decisions.  The social, cultural, economic, and criminal justice implications of design and infrastructure planning decisions (transit, open and public spaces, buildings, retrofits etc.) are significant and are measurable.  Consequently, skills in systems thinking and system dynamics will become even more important than they are perceived to be today.

The one benefit of the recession is that it is forcing a wide range of people and disciplines to consider what on earth we were thinking over the past 50 years.  I&#039;m also hopng that the bizarre and unproductive days of the &quot;starchitect&quot; are waning as they have generally not been able to demonstrate how their work directly benefits the environments in which they exist.  I&#039;ve heard about the &quot;Bilbao Effect&quot; of placing the Guggenheim Museum in what was once a blighted and dangerous docklands area.  My sense though is that it took far more than just the building to create the economic effects that Bilbao now enjoys.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry to see in writing some bickering over who is more pompous than others.  Reminds me of too many conferences I&#8217;ve spoken at and attended.</p>
<p>Fact of the matter is that we have an enormous and highly complex set of public policy, legislative and regulatory problems that have created the urban and suburban mess that a couple of hundred million of us are having to live in and with.  The effect of our nation swallowing hook line and sinker Detroit&#8217;s vision of the American Dream has precipitated a 50 year profits-at-all-costs construction binge by developers and so-called &#8220;builders&#8221; who have smeared poorly constructed fake Tuscany suburban sprawl across our landscapes with no regard at all to the patterns and needs of people and the natural world that sprawl impacts so directly.</p>
<p>The cultural, social and economic blight that such development have so ably supported is what we are now having to deal with.  And its going to take a couple of generations to fix.  During that time, our universities and the professions involved in the environments we inhabit (natural and man-made) have got to do a far better job of educating new generations who need to be skilled in depth in many different disciplines.  The idea that architects only &#8220;do buildings&#8221; or geographers only &#8220;do cultural landscapes&#8221; or urban planners only know how to draw on maps is ridiculous today and will be ever more so in the coming years.  Additionally, we have got to move toward a far stronger evidence-basis for design and planning decisions.  The social, cultural, economic, and criminal justice implications of design and infrastructure planning decisions (transit, open and public spaces, buildings, retrofits etc.) are significant and are measurable.  Consequently, skills in systems thinking and system dynamics will become even more important than they are perceived to be today.</p>
<p>The one benefit of the recession is that it is forcing a wide range of people and disciplines to consider what on earth we were thinking over the past 50 years.  I&#8217;m also hopng that the bizarre and unproductive days of the &#8220;starchitect&#8221; are waning as they have generally not been able to demonstrate how their work directly benefits the environments in which they exist.  I&#8217;ve heard about the &#8220;Bilbao Effect&#8221; of placing the Guggenheim Museum in what was once a blighted and dangerous docklands area.  My sense though is that it took far more than just the building to create the economic effects that Bilbao now enjoys.</p>
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		<title>By: dick g</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-3/#comment-88821</link>
		<dc:creator>dick g</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 10:56:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-88821</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I used to love Frank Gehry&#039;s stuff even emulated his studio when I was in the A&amp;E business in the 1980&#039;s- Loyala Law, his house, great out of the box thinking- then I saw the Seattle abortion- CAD privilege gone wild- we don&#039;t need to use the stretch command as a design fix on the Parthenon or whatever, reminded me of the Zomeworks weather balloon homes where if you wanted a bigger living room you just pumped in a few thousand cubic feet more---I am glad to hear you called him on it, or at least are asking the question &quot;How important is it to be radical in your abandonment of traditional design-&quot;. Not to forget his use of ridiculously expensive materials and difficult to impossible to maintain buildings- titanium ear rings for a building? And someone should call him on his comment in his interview movie for making a sexist comment on a model as being &quot;looking to flat, like Alice-&quot; as the probable Alice walked by.... ahhhh the benefits of starchitecture]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I used to love Frank Gehry&#8217;s stuff even emulated his studio when I was in the A&amp;E business in the 1980&#8242;s- Loyala Law, his house, great out of the box thinking- then I saw the Seattle abortion- CAD privilege gone wild- we don&#8217;t need to use the stretch command as a design fix on the Parthenon or whatever, reminded me of the Zomeworks weather balloon homes where if you wanted a bigger living room you just pumped in a few thousand cubic feet more&#8212;I am glad to hear you called him on it, or at least are asking the question &#8220;How important is it to be radical in your abandonment of traditional design-&#8221;. Not to forget his use of ridiculously expensive materials and difficult to impossible to maintain buildings- titanium ear rings for a building? And someone should call him on his comment in his interview movie for making a sexist comment on a model as being &#8220;looking to flat, like Alice-&#8221; as the probable Alice walked by&#8230;. ahhhh the benefits of starchitecture</p>
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		<title>By: Buildings New York Wants and Doesn&#8217;t &#171; Straßgefühl</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-3/#comment-88705</link>
		<dc:creator>Buildings New York Wants and Doesn&#8217;t &#171; Straßgefühl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 21:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-88705</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] I&#8217;m a little unhappy about it, but given Gehry&#8217;s recent behavior (and continuing problems with public space), maybe he needed an attitude adjustment on this [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I&#8217;m a little unhappy about it, but given Gehry&#8217;s recent behavior (and continuing problems with public space), maybe he needed an attitude adjustment on this [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Netsol Blogs &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Smackdown with Frank Gehry</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-3/#comment-88166</link>
		<dc:creator>Netsol Blogs &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Smackdown with Frank Gehry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 21:55:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-88166</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] &#160;The exchange between starchitect Frank Gehry and Project for Public&#160; Places&#8216;&#160;(PPS), Fred Kent, or rather the non exchange, stimulated a great exchange. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &nbsp;The exchange between starchitect Frank Gehry and Project for Public&nbsp; Places&#8216;&nbsp;(PPS), Fred Kent, or rather the non exchange, stimulated a great exchange. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Irving D. Zeiner</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-3/#comment-88150</link>
		<dc:creator>Irving D. Zeiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 20:33:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-88150</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was glad this exchange  provoked Mike Dobbins to chime in (Aug 30) with his  synthesis of the dialectic which has sharpened, not only thanks to Kent and Gehry, but also thanks to the collapse of the financial market for trophy architecture.  The coincidence of this economic &quot;context&quot; with  Wiley&#039;s publication this year of  Dobbins&#039;  URBAN DESIGN AND PEOPLE could (repeat, could) provide a turning point. 

 My fear, however, is that as celebrity and wannabe celebrity architecture firms scramble to survive by sniffing out and scooping up the public projects, we&#039;ll see more celebrity dictated urban design disasters than Dobbins&#039; style &quot;citizen guided&quot; urban design successes.  

I also suspect that what we are discussing here -- the dialectic between the 5% of buildings Gehry deems &quot;architecture&quot; and Dobbins&#039; &quot;civic environment&quot; which the &quot;architecture&quot; complements or embarrasses -- does,  for better or worse, have as much to do with personality as economics.  or perhaps more aptly said, one&#039;s personal values and practice vis a vis the economy.  Some years ago  after watching Dobbins interact with a neighborhood group, I described him as &quot;a pencil in the hands of the people.&quot; This takes an architect with a personality vis a vis economics different  from one said to  design by crumpling a piece of paper and hiring structural engineers to &quot;make it so.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was glad this exchange  provoked Mike Dobbins to chime in (Aug 30) with his  synthesis of the dialectic which has sharpened, not only thanks to Kent and Gehry, but also thanks to the collapse of the financial market for trophy architecture.  The coincidence of this economic &#8220;context&#8221; with  Wiley&#8217;s publication this year of  Dobbins&#8217;  URBAN DESIGN AND PEOPLE could (repeat, could) provide a turning point. </p>
<p> My fear, however, is that as celebrity and wannabe celebrity architecture firms scramble to survive by sniffing out and scooping up the public projects, we&#8217;ll see more celebrity dictated urban design disasters than Dobbins&#8217; style &#8220;citizen guided&#8221; urban design successes.  </p>
<p>I also suspect that what we are discussing here &#8212; the dialectic between the 5% of buildings Gehry deems &#8220;architecture&#8221; and Dobbins&#8217; &#8220;civic environment&#8221; which the &#8220;architecture&#8221; complements or embarrasses &#8212; does,  for better or worse, have as much to do with personality as economics.  or perhaps more aptly said, one&#8217;s personal values and practice vis a vis the economy.  Some years ago  after watching Dobbins interact with a neighborhood group, I described him as &#8220;a pencil in the hands of the people.&#8221; This takes an architect with a personality vis a vis economics different  from one said to  design by crumpling a piece of paper and hiring structural engineers to &#8220;make it so.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Latini</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-3/#comment-86990</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Latini</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 13:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-86990</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with Mr Evangelopoulos and Barcia... The opportunity for discussion was lost a bit, but alas, can be found again. Disclosure, I am an Urban Planner. 
 
Context-- it is what many architects miss in the focus of the structure itself and what seems to be the inherent need to set one&#039;s SELF apart from other designers. Architectural detail-- is what many urban planners fail to convey as important within their socialistic mindsets. 

The importance of focusing on the building itself is not in dispute, but the interface and relationships of that building to the humans along side it is more important. The fact that someone can be called a visionary that dismisses what I believe is a critical piece of every project -- the architecture of the public space that the (would be) iconic structure sets within is questionable but unimportant in this discussion. The true questions is; how can we, as planners and architects, come together to influence each other that both structure and context are important components of a quality environment. These territorial “markings” that each of our own perspectives is more important than the others has to go (including engineers). The people our work serves is of utmost importance and life so dynamic that it truly takes all of perspectives to make it work! 

Join the discussion Mr Gehry and use your influence to help us bridge these divides…]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Mr Evangelopoulos and Barcia&#8230; The opportunity for discussion was lost a bit, but alas, can be found again. Disclosure, I am an Urban Planner. </p>
<p>Context&#8211; it is what many architects miss in the focus of the structure itself and what seems to be the inherent need to set one&#8217;s SELF apart from other designers. Architectural detail&#8211; is what many urban planners fail to convey as important within their socialistic mindsets. </p>
<p>The importance of focusing on the building itself is not in dispute, but the interface and relationships of that building to the humans along side it is more important. The fact that someone can be called a visionary that dismisses what I believe is a critical piece of every project &#8212; the architecture of the public space that the (would be) iconic structure sets within is questionable but unimportant in this discussion. The true questions is; how can we, as planners and architects, come together to influence each other that both structure and context are important components of a quality environment. These territorial “markings” that each of our own perspectives is more important than the others has to go (including engineers). The people our work serves is of utmost importance and life so dynamic that it truly takes all of perspectives to make it work! </p>
<p>Join the discussion Mr Gehry and use your influence to help us bridge these divides…</p>
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		<title>By: Edwin Barcia</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-3/#comment-86867</link>
		<dc:creator>Edwin Barcia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 04:16:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-86867</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What a pity that an opportunity for productive discussion on the topic of iconic  architecture and public space was lost to the audience (and to us) just because the personalities involved had something to prove to each other. 

Public space may be viewed as the &quot;sala&quot; or salon where our lives unfold. And as in any living room wall, an accent may add interest to that space, but it can only be part of the larger whole, and never greater than it. Iconic architecture serves basically as &quot;accent&quot; to those spaces where people congregate. No matter how breath taking it may be (as in Gehry&#039;s works for instance), it still must be subservient to some public space - whether it be a plaza mayor, square or sidewalk. The setting lends it its character and importance. The greater the setting, the more important then is its relevance to the community. But in the end it serves only still, as the ever changing backdrop to public and personal events, and not directly as the main space where these may take place.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a pity that an opportunity for productive discussion on the topic of iconic  architecture and public space was lost to the audience (and to us) just because the personalities involved had something to prove to each other. </p>
<p>Public space may be viewed as the &#8220;sala&#8221; or salon where our lives unfold. And as in any living room wall, an accent may add interest to that space, but it can only be part of the larger whole, and never greater than it. Iconic architecture serves basically as &#8220;accent&#8221; to those spaces where people congregate. No matter how breath taking it may be (as in Gehry&#8217;s works for instance), it still must be subservient to some public space &#8211; whether it be a plaza mayor, square or sidewalk. The setting lends it its character and importance. The greater the setting, the more important then is its relevance to the community. But in the end it serves only still, as the ever changing backdrop to public and personal events, and not directly as the main space where these may take place.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Vangeli Evangelopoulos, PhD</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-3/#comment-86741</link>
		<dc:creator>Vangeli Evangelopoulos, PhD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-86741</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, this was a very interesting encounter at the Aspen Ideas Festival. I read the incident on the PPS site, Fallows’ Atlantic article and the ‘City Comforts’ blog. 

It’s really impressive to see Ghery’s architecture. I mean, the Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao is definitely a very intricate, impressive, spatially imposing, elegant in its own way, with a very special relationship to the sky and water structure. For Ghery to achieve a balance in the aesthetics of so many forms and combine them in an aesthetically harmonious way is an achievement he is obviously proud of. The same I think regarding the rest of his buildings.

There is an aesthetic Ghery goes for and his deep knowledge of architecture and the deliverance of this aesthetic is definitely pronounced and vividly exhibited in his intricate and unusual sculptural creations of buildings. 

Do we need this architectural elaboration as a society? Why not? It’s something not only to admire but also a source of richness and pride in our daily life.

So far so good. There are of course different questions someone can ask about the contributions of such architecture and every question can approach the subject from a different facet.  At the same time, every such facet can represent different dimensions an architectural structure could possibly acquire. 

I believe Ghery was being asked a simple question: how can his buildings include this other dimension, called ‘a good public space’ or else how can his creations contribute more to the public life in the open spaces around them. Is what’s there enough?  Is this new dimension, called ‘effective public space,’ useful for Ghery’s buildings and the city they reside? 

Much of the talk in the articles and the blogs I read was about who is arrogant and who is not, who is classy or not or whether Ghery’s ‘hauteur’ fit within his brilliance. Some of the blogs though, focused on the issue, the simple fact that Ghery left the question unanswered. 

So with all do respect I will ask Ghery myself: why not incorporate this new dimension into the buildings, or why would you think it is unnecessary if so. Ghery, you are a very exceptional architect and figure of our era and we need your opinion on the issue. Why not elaborate and discuss the importance of creating an effective public space around iconic buildings?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, this was a very interesting encounter at the Aspen Ideas Festival. I read the incident on the PPS site, Fallows’ Atlantic article and the ‘City Comforts’ blog. </p>
<p>It’s really impressive to see Ghery’s architecture. I mean, the Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao is definitely a very intricate, impressive, spatially imposing, elegant in its own way, with a very special relationship to the sky and water structure. For Ghery to achieve a balance in the aesthetics of so many forms and combine them in an aesthetically harmonious way is an achievement he is obviously proud of. The same I think regarding the rest of his buildings.</p>
<p>There is an aesthetic Ghery goes for and his deep knowledge of architecture and the deliverance of this aesthetic is definitely pronounced and vividly exhibited in his intricate and unusual sculptural creations of buildings. </p>
<p>Do we need this architectural elaboration as a society? Why not? It’s something not only to admire but also a source of richness and pride in our daily life.</p>
<p>So far so good. There are of course different questions someone can ask about the contributions of such architecture and every question can approach the subject from a different facet.  At the same time, every such facet can represent different dimensions an architectural structure could possibly acquire. </p>
<p>I believe Ghery was being asked a simple question: how can his buildings include this other dimension, called ‘a good public space’ or else how can his creations contribute more to the public life in the open spaces around them. Is what’s there enough?  Is this new dimension, called ‘effective public space,’ useful for Ghery’s buildings and the city they reside? </p>
<p>Much of the talk in the articles and the blogs I read was about who is arrogant and who is not, who is classy or not or whether Ghery’s ‘hauteur’ fit within his brilliance. Some of the blogs though, focused on the issue, the simple fact that Ghery left the question unanswered. </p>
<p>So with all do respect I will ask Ghery myself: why not incorporate this new dimension into the buildings, or why would you think it is unnecessary if so. Ghery, you are a very exceptional architect and figure of our era and we need your opinion on the issue. Why not elaborate and discuss the importance of creating an effective public space around iconic buildings?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Lakeman</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-3/#comment-86466</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Lakeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:18:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-86466</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fred,

Thanks for asking such an important question, and also for framing the question with enough context for Frank to be able to fully respond. He could have answered the question in any number of ways. It&#039;s too bad that he chose not to engage. It would have made for some interesting discussion later.

Please keep up your excellent work, and for helping to provide this venue for us.

Mark
City Repair]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred,</p>
<p>Thanks for asking such an important question, and also for framing the question with enough context for Frank to be able to fully respond. He could have answered the question in any number of ways. It&#8217;s too bad that he chose not to engage. It would have made for some interesting discussion later.</p>
<p>Please keep up your excellent work, and for helping to provide this venue for us.</p>
<p>Mark<br />
City Repair</p>
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		<title>By: wenfa</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-3/#comment-86368</link>
		<dc:creator>wenfa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 22:59:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-86368</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[just share a comment from an elderly bilbao residents when i was in Bilbao visiting bilbao museum, of course. the old lady approached me as i was standing outside admiring it from across the river. she told me when it was just completed she did not like it but after a while she says she begins to like it. As a public place,i believe it will get there, give it a bit of time like new house and places. it is a new beginning for Bilbao compared to the old Bilbao urban fabric. it needs to be built and layered upon. a wonderful centre. Bilbao is not barcelona you are not going to get that sort of &#039;buzzy&#039; public life even in the old Bilbao, expectation must be realistic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>just share a comment from an elderly bilbao residents when i was in Bilbao visiting bilbao museum, of course. the old lady approached me as i was standing outside admiring it from across the river. she told me when it was just completed she did not like it but after a while she says she begins to like it. As a public place,i believe it will get there, give it a bit of time like new house and places. it is a new beginning for Bilbao compared to the old Bilbao urban fabric. it needs to be built and layered upon. a wonderful centre. Bilbao is not barcelona you are not going to get that sort of &#8216;buzzy&#8217; public life even in the old Bilbao, expectation must be realistic.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael McAuley</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-2/#comment-86150</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael McAuley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 02:47:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-86150</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gehry&#039;s work is pretty amazing. I&#039;ve had the pleasure of seeing his work at the EMP in Seattle.  It&#039;s out of context, it&#039;s almost ugly and it seems to make no sense architecturally - but it&#039;s art and I look at it as such.  Luckily the EMP is adjacent to the long term Seattle Center attraction left over from the &#039;62 World&#039;s Fair which gave the world the Space Needle.  The problem with iconic architecture like Gehry&#039;s, tho, is that it&#039;s almost predetermined to remain separate.  As I read the postings here I was reminded of a long ago trip to Jamaica where the &#039;compound&#039; we stayed at was gorgeous; it, too, was out of context in an otherwise horribly impoverished area so while the experience inside was first rate if you like that sort of thing, the experience immediately outside was altogether disembodied from the resort.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gehry&#8217;s work is pretty amazing. I&#8217;ve had the pleasure of seeing his work at the EMP in Seattle.  It&#8217;s out of context, it&#8217;s almost ugly and it seems to make no sense architecturally &#8211; but it&#8217;s art and I look at it as such.  Luckily the EMP is adjacent to the long term Seattle Center attraction left over from the &#8217;62 World&#8217;s Fair which gave the world the Space Needle.  The problem with iconic architecture like Gehry&#8217;s, tho, is that it&#8217;s almost predetermined to remain separate.  As I read the postings here I was reminded of a long ago trip to Jamaica where the &#8216;compound&#8217; we stayed at was gorgeous; it, too, was out of context in an otherwise horribly impoverished area so while the experience inside was first rate if you like that sort of thing, the experience immediately outside was altogether disembodied from the resort.</p>
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		<title>By: Carlos Caminos</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-2/#comment-86028</link>
		<dc:creator>Carlos Caminos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:41:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-86028</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In relation to starchitects in general and Gehry in particular, I think it worthwhile to ponder John Silber&#039;s comment in his book Arquitecture of the Absurd:
Architectur of the absurd is flourishing thanks to the debasement, inexperience, and supine gullibility of the clients. What is the cure? Perhaps re-reading Hans Christian Andersen&#039;s insightful fairy tale &quot;The Emperor&#039;s New Clothes&quot; will help. The client -not the architect- is the emperor; it is he who is mocked when architects forget their function as practical artists in partnership with clients whose views are worthy of respect and whose economic resources are not to be exceeded. The patrons, the clients -the ones who pay- should not forfeit their dignity as persons and allow themselves, through vanity, gullibility, or timidity to be seduced. Clients should not be flummoxed by architects who overstep the practical limitations of their profession. Theoryspeak, celebrity, and self-proclaimed Genius cannot cover the naked absurdity of much contemporary architecture.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In relation to starchitects in general and Gehry in particular, I think it worthwhile to ponder John Silber&#8217;s comment in his book Arquitecture of the Absurd:<br />
Architectur of the absurd is flourishing thanks to the debasement, inexperience, and supine gullibility of the clients. What is the cure? Perhaps re-reading Hans Christian Andersen&#8217;s insightful fairy tale &#8220;The Emperor&#8217;s New Clothes&#8221; will help. The client -not the architect- is the emperor; it is he who is mocked when architects forget their function as practical artists in partnership with clients whose views are worthy of respect and whose economic resources are not to be exceeded. The patrons, the clients -the ones who pay- should not forfeit their dignity as persons and allow themselves, through vanity, gullibility, or timidity to be seduced. Clients should not be flummoxed by architects who overstep the practical limitations of their profession. Theoryspeak, celebrity, and self-proclaimed Genius cannot cover the naked absurdity of much contemporary architecture.</p>
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		<title>By: Susan Kramer</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-2/#comment-85600</link>
		<dc:creator>Susan Kramer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 22:51:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-85600</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m sure that when Frank Gehry puts on a pair of shoes he thinks of how they&#039;ll look in the context of his clothing. He likely wouldn&#039;t put on a pair of wingtips with shorts. So he &quot;does context.&quot; A building does not go up in a bubble. For any architect to build a building without thinking of what is outside its doors is someone just not doing their job. I don&#039;t care how beautiful or interesting the building is. It is not a sculpture, no matter how much of an Artiste the architect thinks they may be.

Thanks, Fred, for putting it all in perspective, which was the whole point, wasn&#039;t it?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure that when Frank Gehry puts on a pair of shoes he thinks of how they&#8217;ll look in the context of his clothing. He likely wouldn&#8217;t put on a pair of wingtips with shorts. So he &#8220;does context.&#8221; A building does not go up in a bubble. For any architect to build a building without thinking of what is outside its doors is someone just not doing their job. I don&#8217;t care how beautiful or interesting the building is. It is not a sculpture, no matter how much of an Artiste the architect thinks they may be.</p>
<p>Thanks, Fred, for putting it all in perspective, which was the whole point, wasn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: mike dobbins, faia, aicp</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-2/#comment-85581</link>
		<dc:creator>mike dobbins, faia, aicp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 21:04:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-85581</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is a dialectical relationship between buildings and the civic environment that connects them with people and each other. Buildings are usually &quot;private,&quot; the locus of personal activity, like places to sleep or make a living in. The civic realm is &quot;public,&quot; that which we all own, traverse and on a good day gather together in. In the best places, this dialectic synthesizes and honors the positive aspects of both kinds of space. We don&#039;t have too many of these. 

&quot;Architecture&quot; is historically the name given to those buidlings commissioned by people of great wealth and power to memorialize their importance. Architects court people with enough resources to build &quot;architecture&quot; (Frank Gehry dismisses 95% of buildings as not being &quot;architecture&quot;). 

In these times, trophy architects (I find this expression more accurately descriptive), having found compatibility with their patrons, are expressing their clients&#039; aspirations for immortality through really creative, expressive - and expensive - works, elegies on our present age of excess. Sometimes in breathtaking ways, though as the melted building syndrome proceeds, look for them to pop up in degraded form in shopping malls. 

The civic environment, on the other hand, is what we all own and collectively use to get where we need to go and, if we design it right, celebrate our civility. It&#039;s a different kind of design. Rather than &quot;express&quot; the will of the powerful through the will of the trophy architect, civic design &quot;reflects&quot; - or should - the will of the people, we who own this space. It seeks to meet both the functional and the aesthetic, togetherness needs of the many. 

This latter kind of design has been in short supply. Most architecture and even landscape architecture schools, which teach how to conceptualize three dimensionally, holistically, and simultaneously, overwhelmeingly extol and promote the patron-architect model as the only way to go for their students to become true architects.  This emphasis, naturally enough, leads to a culture that creates self-expressive &quot;iconic&quot; buildings. Though the balance between the two approaches to design is beginning to even up, people trying to teach urban design still often have an uphill struggle with their object designer colleagues. 

Buildings and the civic environment together is where we live, and the civic environment part doesn&#039;t get nearly the design attention it should. Trophy architects are not trained in civic design, indeed have chosen a path that extols the individual patron - usually rich - and so tend not to even relate to a position that says the civic realm matters. Thus they rarely contribute to its enhancement, and they more likely debase it with their &quot;look at me&quot; fixations. Mr. Gehry&#039;s response to Mr. Kent&#039;s question says it all.
 
Fred Kent tries to lift the importance of our shared space in this dialectic. As a result, he has a much deeper understanding and knowledge - indeed more skill - in the design of the civic environment than ttrophy architects. His many successes are tribute to this reality. 

(If you want to read more, there&#039;s this new book, &quot;Urban Design and People,&quot; published by Wiley)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a dialectical relationship between buildings and the civic environment that connects them with people and each other. Buildings are usually &#8220;private,&#8221; the locus of personal activity, like places to sleep or make a living in. The civic realm is &#8220;public,&#8221; that which we all own, traverse and on a good day gather together in. In the best places, this dialectic synthesizes and honors the positive aspects of both kinds of space. We don&#8217;t have too many of these. </p>
<p>&#8220;Architecture&#8221; is historically the name given to those buidlings commissioned by people of great wealth and power to memorialize their importance. Architects court people with enough resources to build &#8220;architecture&#8221; (Frank Gehry dismisses 95% of buildings as not being &#8220;architecture&#8221;). </p>
<p>In these times, trophy architects (I find this expression more accurately descriptive), having found compatibility with their patrons, are expressing their clients&#8217; aspirations for immortality through really creative, expressive &#8211; and expensive &#8211; works, elegies on our present age of excess. Sometimes in breathtaking ways, though as the melted building syndrome proceeds, look for them to pop up in degraded form in shopping malls. </p>
<p>The civic environment, on the other hand, is what we all own and collectively use to get where we need to go and, if we design it right, celebrate our civility. It&#8217;s a different kind of design. Rather than &#8220;express&#8221; the will of the powerful through the will of the trophy architect, civic design &#8220;reflects&#8221; &#8211; or should &#8211; the will of the people, we who own this space. It seeks to meet both the functional and the aesthetic, togetherness needs of the many. </p>
<p>This latter kind of design has been in short supply. Most architecture and even landscape architecture schools, which teach how to conceptualize three dimensionally, holistically, and simultaneously, overwhelmeingly extol and promote the patron-architect model as the only way to go for their students to become true architects.  This emphasis, naturally enough, leads to a culture that creates self-expressive &#8220;iconic&#8221; buildings. Though the balance between the two approaches to design is beginning to even up, people trying to teach urban design still often have an uphill struggle with their object designer colleagues. </p>
<p>Buildings and the civic environment together is where we live, and the civic environment part doesn&#8217;t get nearly the design attention it should. Trophy architects are not trained in civic design, indeed have chosen a path that extols the individual patron &#8211; usually rich &#8211; and so tend not to even relate to a position that says the civic realm matters. Thus they rarely contribute to its enhancement, and they more likely debase it with their &#8220;look at me&#8221; fixations. Mr. Gehry&#8217;s response to Mr. Kent&#8217;s question says it all.</p>
<p>Fred Kent tries to lift the importance of our shared space in this dialectic. As a result, he has a much deeper understanding and knowledge &#8211; indeed more skill &#8211; in the design of the civic environment than ttrophy architects. His many successes are tribute to this reality. </p>
<p>(If you want to read more, there&#8217;s this new book, &#8220;Urban Design and People,&#8221; published by Wiley)</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-2/#comment-84891</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 17:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-84891</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am a city planner by profession. The closing keynote session of the American Planning Association&#039;s 2009 National Planning Conference was by Witold Rybczynski titled &quot;When Buildings Try Too Hard&quot;, primarily a discussion about &quot;Iconic Buildings&quot; and the recent trend to try to create instant &quot;icons&quot;. I questioned Mr. Rybczynski if architects have a code of ethics &quot;to do no harm&quot; similar to the Hippocratic Oath? In Cleveland, Ohio we have our Gehry building at Case Western Reserve University.  I will admit the curved and twisted metal roof is beautiful when it reflects the setting sun but apparently no consideration was given to the fact that we get snow in Cleveland.  It is my understanding that during the winter they have to cordon off  the sidewalks around the four or five story building so that pedestrians are not killed or injured by avalanches of ice and snow that periodically slide off the curved roof! That is ludicrous!  I assume the Gehry designed band shell at Millenium Park in Chicago is not used much during the winter and in my opinion it and the pedestrian bridge he designed over the freeway to it are beautiful, sculptural and contextual with lots of great public space around them.  Mr. Rybczynski made a statement that the concept of &quot;Placemaking&quot; is as arrogant as &quot;Icon Making&quot;. His opinion is that placemaking is an organic process.  The public will make the &quot;place&quot;, we can set the stage, but it takes time for a place to become a &quot;place&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a city planner by profession. The closing keynote session of the American Planning Association&#8217;s 2009 National Planning Conference was by Witold Rybczynski titled &#8220;When Buildings Try Too Hard&#8221;, primarily a discussion about &#8220;Iconic Buildings&#8221; and the recent trend to try to create instant &#8220;icons&#8221;. I questioned Mr. Rybczynski if architects have a code of ethics &#8220;to do no harm&#8221; similar to the Hippocratic Oath? In Cleveland, Ohio we have our Gehry building at Case Western Reserve University.  I will admit the curved and twisted metal roof is beautiful when it reflects the setting sun but apparently no consideration was given to the fact that we get snow in Cleveland.  It is my understanding that during the winter they have to cordon off  the sidewalks around the four or five story building so that pedestrians are not killed or injured by avalanches of ice and snow that periodically slide off the curved roof! That is ludicrous!  I assume the Gehry designed band shell at Millenium Park in Chicago is not used much during the winter and in my opinion it and the pedestrian bridge he designed over the freeway to it are beautiful, sculptural and contextual with lots of great public space around them.  Mr. Rybczynski made a statement that the concept of &#8220;Placemaking&#8221; is as arrogant as &#8220;Icon Making&#8221;. His opinion is that placemaking is an organic process.  The public will make the &#8220;place&#8221;, we can set the stage, but it takes time for a place to become a &#8220;place&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: The purpose of placemaking &#8211; form or function? &#171; CORDthinking</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-2/#comment-84635</link>
		<dc:creator>The purpose of placemaking &#8211; form or function? &#171; CORDthinking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 20:17:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-84635</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Read it here. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Read it here. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Brownie</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/smackdown-with-frank-gehry/comment-page-2/#comment-84613</link>
		<dc:creator>Brownie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 18:06:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3069#comment-84613</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fred&#039;s question is right on.  While recently looking at an architecture book on new buildings in Dubai and the Middle East, it struck me that while the buildings looked spectacular, the relationship at the ground level was very plain and the same you would expect in most places in America.  And that&#039;s where people interact with the buildings probably the most.  How many times do we see new buildings go up and then when they are done, the public space around them is dead.  Contrast that with some wonderful places where you always want to go back to, many of which are very successful pedestrian areas, where the people are, at the ground level of the buildings!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred&#8217;s question is right on.  While recently looking at an architecture book on new buildings in Dubai and the Middle East, it struck me that while the buildings looked spectacular, the relationship at the ground level was very plain and the same you would expect in most places in America.  And that&#8217;s where people interact with the buildings probably the most.  How many times do we see new buildings go up and then when they are done, the public space around them is dead.  Contrast that with some wonderful places where you always want to go back to, many of which are very successful pedestrian areas, where the people are, at the ground level of the buildings!</p>
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