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	<title>Comments on: Moving Beyond the &#8220;Smackdown&#8221; Towards an Architecture of Place</title>
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	<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/moving-beyond-the-smackdown-towards-an-architecture-of-place/</link>
	<description>Placemaking for Communities</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 14 May 2013 09:42:29 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Moving Beyond the “Smackdown” Towards an Architecture of Place « Project for Public Spaces &#8211; Placemaking for Communities &#171; lab2</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/moving-beyond-the-smackdown-towards-an-architecture-of-place/comment-page-1/#comment-95839</link>
		<dc:creator>Moving Beyond the “Smackdown” Towards an Architecture of Place « Project for Public Spaces &#8211; Placemaking for Communities &#171; lab2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Oct 2010 05:46:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3989#comment-95839</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...]   [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]   [...]</p>
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		<title>By: A Soul for Sin City: Placemaking in the Heart of Las Vegas &#171; Project for Public Spaces - Placemaking for Communities</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/moving-beyond-the-smackdown-towards-an-architecture-of-place/comment-page-1/#comment-95833</link>
		<dc:creator>A Soul for Sin City: Placemaking in the Heart of Las Vegas &#171; Project for Public Spaces - Placemaking for Communities</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Oct 2010 23:01:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3989#comment-95833</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] lifestyle previously unavailable in Las Vegas. It is designed by some of the world’s foremost starchitects, and at $8.5 billion dollars, it is the largest privately financed construction project in United [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] lifestyle previously unavailable in Las Vegas. It is designed by some of the world’s foremost starchitects, and at $8.5 billion dollars, it is the largest privately financed construction project in United [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Making of a Great &#8220;Place&#8221; &#124; Sojourn Community Church of South Florida</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/moving-beyond-the-smackdown-towards-an-architecture-of-place/comment-page-1/#comment-95604</link>
		<dc:creator>The Making of a Great &#8220;Place&#8221; &#124; Sojourn Community Church of South Florida</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jun 2010 21:46:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3989#comment-95604</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] of my research, I have been checking out a ton of design and urban planning websites. Here is a great article that deals with urban development. It ends with some great questions for architects and urban [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of my research, I have been checking out a ton of design and urban planning websites. Here is a great article that deals with urban development. It ends with some great questions for architects and urban [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/moving-beyond-the-smackdown-towards-an-architecture-of-place/comment-page-1/#comment-94357</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 18:42:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3989#comment-94357</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you, Ellsworth Toohey.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Ellsworth Toohey.</p>
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		<title>By: nuttwerxz</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/moving-beyond-the-smackdown-towards-an-architecture-of-place/comment-page-1/#comment-93989</link>
		<dc:creator>nuttwerxz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:40:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3989#comment-93989</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fred:
      
     The starchitect&#039;s &quot;patron&#039;s moneyed interests&quot; and the resulting commission usually preclude an examination of your interest in &quot;placemaking.&quot;  The boundaries of contract, property and motivation create short and long term figurative and literal barriers to inclusion of other interests.  Starchitecture is a grand way for the elites to front a public purpose while keeping the masses at bay, leaving the &#039;iconic&#039; structure&#039;s front yard empty, perfect for photography, as you showed in your Duddeldorf pictures.

All in all, a great and well-written description of just one of the wedge issues in our conflicted times.

Your old neighbor.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred:</p>
<p>     The starchitect&#8217;s &#8220;patron&#8217;s moneyed interests&#8221; and the resulting commission usually preclude an examination of your interest in &#8220;placemaking.&#8221;  The boundaries of contract, property and motivation create short and long term figurative and literal barriers to inclusion of other interests.  Starchitecture is a grand way for the elites to front a public purpose while keeping the masses at bay, leaving the &#8216;iconic&#8217; structure&#8217;s front yard empty, perfect for photography, as you showed in your Duddeldorf pictures.</p>
<p>All in all, a great and well-written description of just one of the wedge issues in our conflicted times.</p>
<p>Your old neighbor.</p>
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		<title>By: ygogolak</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/moving-beyond-the-smackdown-towards-an-architecture-of-place/comment-page-1/#comment-91748</link>
		<dc:creator>ygogolak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:17:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3989#comment-91748</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fred,
  You really missed the mark with this obvious attempt to bash starchitet&#039;s.  One building does not create a space, but the master plan does.  Very few starchitect&#039;s are capable of creating a successful master plan.
  Bilbao, which was an attempt to bring people  outsiders to the city, which it has done on an international level, and residents across the river more than anything.  
  You mention Bilbao, a 12 year old development, as unsuccessful, and then mention 2 projects which are in their infancy as a success.  Where are the developments that have withstood the test of time?  Bilbao was in every non-architects mouth and in non-architecture magazines two years after it was built, which was the goal!  
 The park down the street from me, in a residential district, has few visitors on a daily basis, but I&#039;m sure it has netted an astronomically insignificant revenue source for my city than that of the Guggenheim to Bilbao.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred,<br />
  You really missed the mark with this obvious attempt to bash starchitet&#8217;s.  One building does not create a space, but the master plan does.  Very few starchitect&#8217;s are capable of creating a successful master plan.<br />
  Bilbao, which was an attempt to bring people  outsiders to the city, which it has done on an international level, and residents across the river more than anything.<br />
  You mention Bilbao, a 12 year old development, as unsuccessful, and then mention 2 projects which are in their infancy as a success.  Where are the developments that have withstood the test of time?  Bilbao was in every non-architects mouth and in non-architecture magazines two years after it was built, which was the goal!<br />
 The park down the street from me, in a residential district, has few visitors on a daily basis, but I&#8217;m sure it has netted an astronomically insignificant revenue source for my city than that of the Guggenheim to Bilbao.</p>
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		<title>By: moving beyond the &#8217;smackdown&#8217; towards an architecture of place &#171; a space for favorites</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/moving-beyond-the-smackdown-towards-an-architecture-of-place/comment-page-1/#comment-91373</link>
		<dc:creator>moving beyond the &#8217;smackdown&#8217; towards an architecture of place &#171; a space for favorites</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3989#comment-91373</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Via Kent, Fred. &#8220;Moving Beyond the &#8216;Smackdown&#8217; Towards an Architecture of Place.&#8221; Making Places. Project for Public Spaces. 18 Sept 2009.     Posted by ytiffanie Filed in Uncategorized Tags: public spaces, starchitecture, thesis, urbanism   Leave a Comment &#187; [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Via Kent, Fred. &#8220;Moving Beyond the &#8216;Smackdown&#8217; Towards an Architecture of Place.&#8221; Making Places. Project for Public Spaces. 18 Sept 2009.     Posted by ytiffanie Filed in Uncategorized Tags: public spaces, starchitecture, thesis, urbanism   Leave a Comment &#187; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Fred Kent</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/moving-beyond-the-smackdown-towards-an-architecture-of-place/comment-page-1/#comment-91341</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred Kent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 12:34:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3989#comment-91341</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You are absolutely right on both accounts. 

The Pritzker Pavilion is more than just a building which is unusual for Gehry. The larger Park is a disappointment because it is a series of different design statements, two by artists, one by a Landscape Designer and a “square” where there is dinning during the Summer and a skating rink in the Winter. It is a very shallow experience when you look at it as a whole. We are working on a piece about landscape design which is where the real problem lies. When we do that Millennium Park will be placed against more holistically developed destinations. Any suggestions would be welcome.

The Opera House in Oslo is only interesting from a public space perspective because one can literally be all over the building. It isn’t just another “look at me” building. All the fixed seating is hard and almost invisible and the movable seating is part of two outdoor restaurants which add some relief to the starkness of the building. The setting is isolated from the rest of Oslo which will always be a problem. Putting a building like that into &quot;context&quot; is impossible. Thus the question remains, should we be building these expensive, seldom used buildings that draw people away from what is a very interesting city?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are absolutely right on both accounts. </p>
<p>The Pritzker Pavilion is more than just a building which is unusual for Gehry. The larger Park is a disappointment because it is a series of different design statements, two by artists, one by a Landscape Designer and a “square” where there is dinning during the Summer and a skating rink in the Winter. It is a very shallow experience when you look at it as a whole. We are working on a piece about landscape design which is where the real problem lies. When we do that Millennium Park will be placed against more holistically developed destinations. Any suggestions would be welcome.</p>
<p>The Opera House in Oslo is only interesting from a public space perspective because one can literally be all over the building. It isn’t just another “look at me” building. All the fixed seating is hard and almost invisible and the movable seating is part of two outdoor restaurants which add some relief to the starkness of the building. The setting is isolated from the rest of Oslo which will always be a problem. Putting a building like that into &#8220;context&#8221; is impossible. Thus the question remains, should we be building these expensive, seldom used buildings that draw people away from what is a very interesting city?</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Liedstand</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/moving-beyond-the-smackdown-towards-an-architecture-of-place/comment-page-1/#comment-91338</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Liedstand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 12:14:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3989#comment-91338</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fred:
 
Your article stimulated some thoughts.
 
You commented favorably about Chicago&#039;s Pritzker Pavillion.
I think the Pritzker Pavilion in Chicago’s Millennium Park is outstanding – a true iconic architectural achievement. The concert stage, the “Trellis” that spreads an excellent sound system across a large expanse of grass and the seating area are all awesome. I think it is his finest work.

Have you visited the site?  I found Millennium Park to have interesting pieces, but overall not a good place at all.  It was as if whoever planned it had no concept of place.  Was your experience of Millennium Park different?
 
You also commented favorably about the Oslo Opera House.
 
Purely Iconic in its design, the new opera house in Oslo, Norway by the Snohetta firm (based in both Oslo and New York) takes contemporary architecture beyond just the building to create an amazing public space where the public may literally use the entire site as a playground. In fact, Snohetta has explained that for this project, nature defines form and not function. The building itself is wonderful, featuring a dynamic design that allows for creative uses and opportunities for exploration. It is a masterpiece of form, function and nature, and thrives despite its isolation from the rest of the cityscape. To remain vital for the future, the building must grow into a larger mixed-use destination for year-around activity.
 
On a recent visit to Oslo I missed the Opera House so I didn&#039;t experience it.  Instead I am relying on just pictures.  Although the building looks somewhat interesting I don&#039;t see a comfortable place near it.  Is there one?  Does the public really linger there even when there is no performance?  In its isolation from the rest of the city, how can it become &quot;part of a larger mixed-use destination for yea-around activity&#039;?
 
Bruce
 

Bruce Liedstrand
Community Design Strategies
12, place d&#039;Anvers
75009 Paris, France
01.53.16.47.10
Liedstrand@mac.com
Experience the power of good ideas]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred:</p>
<p>Your article stimulated some thoughts.</p>
<p>You commented favorably about Chicago&#8217;s Pritzker Pavillion.<br />
I think the Pritzker Pavilion in Chicago’s Millennium Park is outstanding – a true iconic architectural achievement. The concert stage, the “Trellis” that spreads an excellent sound system across a large expanse of grass and the seating area are all awesome. I think it is his finest work.</p>
<p>Have you visited the site?  I found Millennium Park to have interesting pieces, but overall not a good place at all.  It was as if whoever planned it had no concept of place.  Was your experience of Millennium Park different?</p>
<p>You also commented favorably about the Oslo Opera House.</p>
<p>Purely Iconic in its design, the new opera house in Oslo, Norway by the Snohetta firm (based in both Oslo and New York) takes contemporary architecture beyond just the building to create an amazing public space where the public may literally use the entire site as a playground. In fact, Snohetta has explained that for this project, nature defines form and not function. The building itself is wonderful, featuring a dynamic design that allows for creative uses and opportunities for exploration. It is a masterpiece of form, function and nature, and thrives despite its isolation from the rest of the cityscape. To remain vital for the future, the building must grow into a larger mixed-use destination for year-around activity.</p>
<p>On a recent visit to Oslo I missed the Opera House so I didn&#8217;t experience it.  Instead I am relying on just pictures.  Although the building looks somewhat interesting I don&#8217;t see a comfortable place near it.  Is there one?  Does the public really linger there even when there is no performance?  In its isolation from the rest of the city, how can it become &#8220;part of a larger mixed-use destination for yea-around activity&#8217;?</p>
<p>Bruce</p>
<p>Bruce Liedstrand<br />
Community Design Strategies<br />
12, place d&#8217;Anvers<br />
75009 Paris, France<br />
01.53.16.47.10<br />
<a href="javascript:DeCryptX('MjfetusboeAnbd/dpn')">&#76;i&#101;dstra&#110;d&#64;ma&#99;.co&#109;</a><br />
Experience the power of good ideas</p>
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		<title>By: Deb Talbot</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/moving-beyond-the-smackdown-towards-an-architecture-of-place/comment-page-1/#comment-90931</link>
		<dc:creator>Deb Talbot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 03:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3989#comment-90931</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[First off, i applaud your assessment of iconic architectural landmarks for their contribution to the longer-term connection of people and place.  No building, regardless of the hewn of its facade, is sustainable if life is not drawn to it.
I was also not surprised that your apt and penetrating questions were not well received by the Aspen Ideas Festival participants.  I was a participant of the Aspen Institute for over ten years until i became disillusioned by their lack of willingness to explore issues counter to their patrons&#039; moneyed interests.   

And the questions posed at the end of this piece re the impact of the building on community are questions that should be addressed not just for buildings but also for every product and initiative launched by corporations and not-for-profits as well.  
I particularly liked the word &quot;delight&quot;--it is a word that is found in the fifteenth principle of the LIving Building Challenge issued by Cascadia Regional Green Building Council.  Wouldn&#039;t it be great if all that we created were gauged to delight?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First off, i applaud your assessment of iconic architectural landmarks for their contribution to the longer-term connection of people and place.  No building, regardless of the hewn of its facade, is sustainable if life is not drawn to it.<br />
I was also not surprised that your apt and penetrating questions were not well received by the Aspen Ideas Festival participants.  I was a participant of the Aspen Institute for over ten years until i became disillusioned by their lack of willingness to explore issues counter to their patrons&#8217; moneyed interests.   </p>
<p>And the questions posed at the end of this piece re the impact of the building on community are questions that should be addressed not just for buildings but also for every product and initiative launched by corporations and not-for-profits as well.<br />
I particularly liked the word &#8220;delight&#8221;&#8211;it is a word that is found in the fifteenth principle of the LIving Building Challenge issued by Cascadia Regional Green Building Council.  Wouldn&#8217;t it be great if all that we created were gauged to delight?</p>
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		<title>By: Krzysztof "Kristof" Zukowski</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/moving-beyond-the-smackdown-towards-an-architecture-of-place/comment-page-1/#comment-90904</link>
		<dc:creator>Krzysztof "Kristof" Zukowski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:52:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3989#comment-90904</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Fred,

You didn&#039;t write anything about that but there is a couple of other issues that are closely related to most buildings&#039; public success, or a lack of it. 

And that&#039;s why, most probably, Gehry dismissed the question.

First, most of the owners of architectural firms, you know, the salesmen of their architectural wares, simply don&#039;t care - they just want to avoid any controversy, make their clients happy and be able to pay their staff every two or so weeks. All while knowing that the uninformed public will put up with almost any urban/architectural crap. As it has in the past. Secondly, and Gehry realizes that probably more than anybody else, architects have usually no influence over what kind of site the developer has purchased or a city owns and wants to built on. Some of the sites, like the Millennium Park in Chicago are really good in terms of their potential for public life, some, like the site of the Museum in Bilbao are less inspiring.  And the architects like Gehry, or less talented like the majority of them, really, have to live with the consequences and design what they can.

That&#039;s said, the work PPS is doing, and the attention to necessities of public life that it generates is irreplaceable.  Keep staying the course and doing what PPS has done so far. We need it more than ever.

Krzysztof Zukowski.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Fred,</p>
<p>You didn&#8217;t write anything about that but there is a couple of other issues that are closely related to most buildings&#8217; public success, or a lack of it. </p>
<p>And that&#8217;s why, most probably, Gehry dismissed the question.</p>
<p>First, most of the owners of architectural firms, you know, the salesmen of their architectural wares, simply don&#8217;t care &#8211; they just want to avoid any controversy, make their clients happy and be able to pay their staff every two or so weeks. All while knowing that the uninformed public will put up with almost any urban/architectural crap. As it has in the past. Secondly, and Gehry realizes that probably more than anybody else, architects have usually no influence over what kind of site the developer has purchased or a city owns and wants to built on. Some of the sites, like the Millennium Park in Chicago are really good in terms of their potential for public life, some, like the site of the Museum in Bilbao are less inspiring.  And the architects like Gehry, or less talented like the majority of them, really, have to live with the consequences and design what they can.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s said, the work PPS is doing, and the attention to necessities of public life that it generates is irreplaceable.  Keep staying the course and doing what PPS has done so far. We need it more than ever.</p>
<p>Krzysztof Zukowski.</p>
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		<title>By: elise</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/moving-beyond-the-smackdown-towards-an-architecture-of-place/comment-page-1/#comment-90880</link>
		<dc:creator>elise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 21:30:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3989#comment-90880</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[great piece of writing. really refreshing to read. I teach landsacpe design at greenwich university London and advocate this approach to design at every opportunity. el]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>great piece of writing. really refreshing to read. I teach landsacpe design at greenwich university London and advocate this approach to design at every opportunity. el</p>
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		<title>By: Thorbjoern Mann</title>
		<link>http://www.pps.org/blog/moving-beyond-the-smackdown-towards-an-architecture-of-place/comment-page-1/#comment-90850</link>
		<dc:creator>Thorbjoern Mann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:48:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.pps.org/?p=3989#comment-90850</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I just finished a book manuscript (not yet published but available as a pdf file on CD to interested people) that addressed these very questions (among some other issues). The questions of the article
   &quot; * How will it generate vibrant public life?
    * How will it honor its context in the community?
    * How will it create a community place and draw on local assets? (Cultural, historical, social, and economic)
    * How will it delight people, bring them together and enhance their lives?&quot;
are to the point but still so general that it is difficult to see just how to go about answering them, even to analyze and argue how &#039;merely iconic&#039; architecture fails or does not fail to do so. The key concerns I propose are &#039;occasion&#039; -- the occasions that constitute people&#039;s lives -- and &#039;image&#039; -- the concepts of  who we are or who we ought to be, what we are doing in a place, or what we ought to be doing, that the design of the place evokes and supports in users. I suggest how including these concerns in the programming and design process can nudge designers to respond to these expectations no matter how &#039;iconic&#039; or formalistic their design might otherwise be. This can even lead to the development of new (non-monetary, as is cost or return-on-investment-centered) measures of the value of places and buildings. 
Thorbjoern Mann
thormann@nettally.com]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just finished a book manuscript (not yet published but available as a pdf file on CD to interested people) that addressed these very questions (among some other issues). The questions of the article<br />
   &#8221; * How will it generate vibrant public life?<br />
    * How will it honor its context in the community?<br />
    * How will it create a community place and draw on local assets? (Cultural, historical, social, and economic)<br />
    * How will it delight people, bring them together and enhance their lives?&#8221;<br />
are to the point but still so general that it is difficult to see just how to go about answering them, even to analyze and argue how &#8216;merely iconic&#8217; architecture fails or does not fail to do so. The key concerns I propose are &#8216;occasion&#8217; &#8212; the occasions that constitute people&#8217;s lives &#8212; and &#8216;image&#8217; &#8212; the concepts of  who we are or who we ought to be, what we are doing in a place, or what we ought to be doing, that the design of the place evokes and supports in users. I suggest how including these concerns in the programming and design process can nudge designers to respond to these expectations no matter how &#8216;iconic&#8217; or formalistic their design might otherwise be. This can even lead to the development of new (non-monetary, as is cost or return-on-investment-centered) measures of the value of places and buildings.<br />
Thorbjoern Mann<br />
<a href="javascript:DeCryptX('uipsnbooAofuubmmz/dpn')">tho&#114;&#109;&#97;&#110;n&#64;n&#101;tt&#97;&#108;l&#121;.c&#111;m</a></p>
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